Transcript for Episode 8: Julia Sugarbaker Plans a Gay Funeral
This is the transcript for the installment of the show in which we discuss the Designing Women episode “Killing All the Right People.” If you’d rather listen to Glen and Drew than read what they say, click here. The transcript was provided by Sarah Neal, whose skills we recommend wholeheartedly.
Bernice: I don't think this safe sex is what it's cracked up to be. My husband and I weren't that happy, and we always had safe sex. I mean we had it in bed—and I was usually asleep. I don't think you can get any safer than that.
[audience laughs]
[Designing Women theme song plays]
Drew: You are listening to Gayest Episode Ever, the podcast that looks at episodes of classic TV shows that deal with LBGT themes, which is to say very special episodes that also happen to be very gay episodes. I'm Drew Mackie.
Glen: I'm Glen Lakin.
Drew: And in case that intro didn't tip you off, today we are talking about Designing Women. And before we get into it, I'm just going to say right now that we are talking about a sitcom today, but this is a sad episode of TV. It is about AIDS and homophobia, and watching it—every time I've watched it for this episode, it has made me cry. So there's a high likely—likely-tude?
Glen: I don't know, but I think you're crying already.
Drew: Yeah. There's a high possibility that I might get a little choked up while talking about this episode. And I know for some people crying is like yawning where if one person yawns, everyone yawns, and it's contagious. So if you're in your cubicle or at the gym and you just also are prone to crying, maybe listen to this episode later so you just don't start crying at the gym.
Glen: There's nothing wrong with public crying. I cried at the gym during the last episode of S-Town, and—oh, wait. I did have to leave. I left the gym because I just kept crying.
Drew: Yeah. Watching this episode the first time made me cry for most of it, and my dog was just sitting there staring at me—I think wondering what noise I was making, because he's not super used to that. And then I walked my dog, and then started thinking about how I'd talk about this episode during the walk and kind of started getting choked up again. And this lady whose dogs were in her front yard were barking at me, and she's like, "Oh, I'm so sorry." And I wanted to just be like, "It's not the dogs."
Glen: The dogs weren't making you cry?
Drew: No [laughs]. "It's not your fault. I did this to myself." Yeah.
Glen: You often do it to yourself.
Drew: I do a lot of things to myself. Designing Women, if you don't know, was a CBS sitcom that ran from 1986 to 1993 and centered on four women who worked together at Sugarbaker & Associates, an interior design firm in Atlanta. Glen, what is your experience with Designing Women?
Glen: Not much. My formative experience with Designing Women is just seeing clips of Julia Sugarbaker going on rants played in gay bars while I was drinking. Growing up, we weren't much of a CBS household, and I don't think I actually knew what the show was about. I'd watch random episodes and be like, "None of these four sisters really look alike. And why do they have a black adopted brother? What a family this is. This seems like an interesting show, but I'm going to watch [censored] instead."
Drew: Right. Right. You just said the name of the show we're not supposed to say. I'll bleep it out.
Glen: The Felicia Rashad show.
Drew: The Felicia Rashad show, yeah. Thank you. We didn't have CBS, so everything that aired that the rest of you grew up with, like Murphy Brown, not something I ever watched when I was a kid, so I had to play catch-up with them. There was reruns on after cartoons, but I kind of resented them because they took—it used to be two Simpsons back to back, and they replaced on of the Simpsons with Designing Women. So obviously, I hated it, but then I kept watching and was like, "Oh. This is actually kind of funny sometimes." I do want to say that before I ever had seen an episode of the show, my first exposure to Designing Women was through Roseanne. Do you remember the episode where they don't pay the power bill and they're just sitting in the dark and they have to tell stories?
Glen: Yes.
Drew: Do you remember the Designing Women joke from that episode?
Glen: No.
Drew: Okay. I found it verbatim. So the Conners are sitting in their living room, trying to just come up with anything to entertain each other, and Roseanne's like, "Okay. I got one. Well once upon a time, there were these four princesses, and they lived in this great big house, all together, and they never left. And they just sat around all the time, talking and talking and yammering and yammering, and they killed every single man who ever came over except for one, who they kept as a pet. And then one time, these two princesses left, and then these other two came on, and they really stunk." And then Darlene's like, "Mom. This is Designing Women." She was like, "Damn. You figured it out." So years before I ever saw the show, that was my only real impression of it. There's more to it than that. It's better than Roseanne Conner let on. The show essentially became a vehicle for Dixie Carter and her tirades—screeds? Those sound too negative because they're these righteous sermons, almost, that she delivers against offensive people, and they're almost always against rude people, and they have a liberal bent to them because the creator of the show—Linda Bloodworth-Thomason—is very liberal. And it's interesting because Dixie Carter herself—
Glen: Is not very liberal.
Drew: Not. She's a republican libertarian. And the deal that they eventually made was like, "Okay. I'll do all these speeches, but for every speech I do, you have to write into an episode that I get to sing." She's a good singer, though.
Glen: This is after her stint on Diff'rent Strokes, correct?
Drew: Yes. This is after that. And I will also say, yes, she was conservative libertarian, advocate of gay rights and AIDS funding and AIDS awareness.
Glen: Oh, back in the day when conservatives could actually acknowledge science and human beings?
Drew: Mm-hmm.
Glen: Fun.
Drew: Yeah. I think it was after the show ended, but there was a three-woman gala, and the three women honored guests were her, Elaine Stritch, and Bea Arthur, and it was all for AIDS awareness/AIDS funding. I was like, "Oh, my god." It's an amazing fucking show. Carter sadly passed away in 2010. Linda Bloodworth-Thomason is the creator of the show. She's a former teacher and newspaper reporter who wrote TV on the side, which is a thing that you could do back then.
Glen: Rolling my eyes.
Drew: She got nominated for an Emmy for M*A*S*H, and then that became her primary career. And although Designing Women is easily her best-known accomplishment, in 1982 she created a sitcom called Filthy Rich, which was a satire of Dynasty and Dallas and all those things, starring Delta Burke and Dixie Carter.
Glen: What!
Drew: And it didn't last, but apparently she liked working with them enough that she was like, "Okay. Let's do something else, and this thing came into existence and is kind of awesome. I always thought of this as CBS's response to Golden Girls because this started the next season after Golden Girls took off. They're both shows about four women who sit around and talk about romance and politics and social issues—just instead of olds, they're Southerns.
Glen: Yeah. Those are synonymous sometimes.
Drew: Yeah, I guess.
Glen: I find it weird that Delta Burke got top billing.
Drew: Did she?
Glen: Yeah. Who is she to take away top billing from Dixie Carter?
Drew: I didn't realize that. Well, Dixie Carter won out because Delta Burke left after five seasons.
Glen: Which is a good number of seasons.
Drew: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's enough.
Glen: What season was this episode in?
Drew: Second.
Glen: That seems to be a theme.
Drew: Yeah. It's like, "Here. We got a feeling for what we're doing. Let's do a gay episode already." Yeah. That's an odd little thing. Except for All in the Family. It was like, "Five episodes in, we're going to hit that gay real hard." Not literally.
Glen: [laughs] Well—maybe literally.
Drew: So, yeah. Delta Burke—they're sisters, and it's about their relationship. So I guess maybe it was considered they were co-leads, but Delta Burke did get top billing initially, at least.
Glen: Alphabetical.
Drew: Maybe that's it. Delta Burke's character is Suzanne Sugarbaker, Julia Sugarbaker's sister. She's the silent partner in the business. She has money and she doesn't have any real role in the operation. She just wants to hang out and read magazines while everyone else does work around her.
Glen: She put her shoes on the couch.
Drew: She did. She's entitled. She's a former beauty queen, much as Delta Burke was a former beauty queen. She was a former Miss—Florida?
Glen: Georgia, because as I learned in a weekend in Palm Springs recently—there's a whole Julia Sugarbaker—not rant, but whatever we decided to call it—where she's defending her sister and her baton routine, and she says—
Julia: Excuse me, aren't you Marjorie Leigh Winnick, the current Miss Georgia World?
Marjorie: Why, yes I am.
Julia: I'm Julia Sugarbaker, Suzanne Sugarbaker's sister. I couldn't help over hearing part of your conversation.
Marjorie: Well, I'm sorry. I didn't know anyone was here.
Julia: Yes, and I gather from your comments there are a couple of other things you don't know, Marjorie. For example, you probably didn't know that Suzanne was the only contestant in Georgia pageant history to sweep every category except congeniality, and that is not something the women in my family aspire to anyway.
Marjorie: That's really nice, but—
Julia: Or that when she walked down the runway in her swimsuit, five contestants quit on the spot. Or that when she emerged from the isolation booth to answer the question, "What would you do to prevent war?" she spoke so eloquently of patriotism, battlefields, and diamond tiaras grown men wept.
Marjorie: That's really—
Julia: And you probably didn't know, Marjorie, that Suzanne was not just any Miss Georgia. She was the Miss Georgia. She didn't twirl just a baton. That baton was on fire.
Marjorie: Look, that's—
Julia: And when she threw that baton into the air, it flew higher, further, faster than any baton has ever flown before, hitting a transformer and showering the darkened arena with sparks!
Marjorie: Look—
Julia: And when it finally did come down, Marjorie, my sister caught that baton, and 12,000 people jumped to their feet for sixteen and one-half minutes of uninterrupted thunderous ovation, as flames illuminated her tear-stained face! And that, Marjorie, just so you will know, and your children will someday know—is the night the lights went out in Georgia!
[audience laughs and applauds]
Drew: It's probably the most famous of all of the Julia Sugarbaker speeches.
Glen: I disagree.
Drew: Oh. Really?
Glen: I think it's the one where she talks about prayer in school.
Drew: I don't know about that one.
Glen: Oh. She goes on local television and talks about how just because she's not forcing—
Julia: No, Mr. Brickett. I have not forgotten. I was thinking that you seem to have forgotten the phrase "separation of church and state." But the one thing I did forget was just how divisive and dishonest and distasteful someone like you can be. I've sat here today and listened to you pander to these people, but you don't actually care about them, or you wouldn't be sitting here reinforcing their ignorance and prejudices.
Mr. Brickett: You heard that, Caller. She just called you ignorant and prejudiced!
Julia: I do not think everyone in America is ignorant! Far from it! But we are today, probably, the most uneducated, under read, and illiterate nation in the western hemisphere, which makes it all the more puzzling to me why the biggest question on your small mind is whether or not little Johnny is going to recite the Pledge of Allegiance every morning. I'll tell you something else, Mr. Brickett. I have had it up to here with you and your phony issues and your yankee-doodle yakking! If you like reciting the Pledge of Allegiance every day then I think you should do it—in the car, in the shower, wherever the mood strikes you—but don't try to tell me when or where I have to say or do or salute anything, because I am an American too, and that is what being an American is all about. And another thing. I am sick and tired of being made to feel that if I am not a member of a little family with 2.4 children who goes just to Jerry Falwell's church and puts their hands over their hearts every morning that I am unreligious, unpatriotic, and un-American, because I have news for you, Mr. Brickett. All liberals are not kooks, any more than all conservatives are fascists. And the last time I checked, God was neither a Democrat nor a Republican, and just for your information, yes I am a liberal, but I am also a Christian. And I get down on my knees and pray every day—on my own turf, on my own time. And one of the things that I pray for, Mr. Brickett, is that people with power will get good sense, and that people with good sense will get power, and that the rest of us will be blessed with the patience and the strength to survive the people like you in the meantime.
[audience cheers and applauds]
Drew: Rounding out the main cast is Annie Potts—Janine Melnitz herself—who plays Mary Jo Shively, who's one of the head designers in the firm and is cute and nice. And in case you're wondering—I just wanted to see what the hell is Annie Potts doing nowadays—she plays Meemaw on Young Sheldon. She plays the grandma in Young Sheldon, which is not a show I have watched or will ever watch, but Annie Potts go for it. You deserve that Big Bang Theory money. And then there is Jean Smart who plays Charlene who works in the office, and she's lovely and she's not dumb—she's like an innocent—
Glen: She's sweet and soft.
Drew: Yeah. Yeah. She just doesn't know about things, and she doesn't really get a whole lot to do in this episode. But's weird just having watched this one episode—it's crazy thinking about what her career is now because I don't think anyone would have predicted the kind of roles she'd be playing all these years later.
Glen: Murder matriarch, and also—
Drew: Yeah. So murder matriarch on the second season of Fargo, which is phenomenal just for Kirsten Dunst and Jean Smart alone. The rest of it's also very good, but just for those two it's super fucking good. And she's currently on Legion, also on FX, where she plays Dr. Melanie Bird, and her character's already gone through a great—oh, it's really fucking good. Please watch.
Glen: Listen to our Legion podcast.
Drew: Yeah. No. The show debuted in 1986. It did fine initially. It got shuffled around the schedule, though, and kind of lost its viewership and almost got canceled. It didn't actually make it into the Top 20 until its fourth season where they paired it with Murphy Brown, which was women-in-the-workplace comedies back to back, which made sense, and became a legitimate hit four years in. So they stuck with it, which again—something we've mentioned before and we're going to mention again before we're done with this first season—there was a time when networks stuck with an idea if they knew it would work and didn't cancel it right away. If only. This particular episode came in 11th for the week, being watched by 16.5 million households, below an episode of Head of the Class, but above Magnum P.I. This episode was written by Linda Bloodworth-Thomason and directed by her husband and creative partner, Henry Thomason. Linda was nominated for an Emmy for writing but lost to a show called Frank's Place. Have you ever heard of this?
Glen: Yes.
Drew: It was nominated for an Emmy for Outstanding Comedy but was canceled, and it starred Tim Reid—who is the father in Sister, Sister—and Daphne Maxwell Reid, who is Aunt Viv #2 from Fresh Prince.
Glen: Boo.
Drew: They're married. The dad from Sister, Sister is married to Aunt Viv #2. I did not know that, but that's why her name is Daphne Maxwell Reid.
Glen: That checks out.
Drew: Yeah. It totally does. My title for this episode is "Julia Sugarbaker Plans a Gay Funeral."
Glen: Mine is "Annie Potts talks about sex."
Drew: That makes it sound lighter than what it is. That doesn't give a hint at how devastating it is.
Glen: "Annie Potts Gets Sad Talking About Sex."
Drew: Yeah. I mean, that's true. Yeah. So this episode opens in the office with Delta Burke and Annie Potts talking about this new client Imogene—Eye-mogene, not Imm-mogene—Imogene Salinger who they can't stand because she's very up on her own son, and—
Glen: Not literally.
Drew: No. No, no. That's a different episode. She has a son, and Julia has a son, and they're apparently about the same age, and Imogene is very competitive with Julia about "Oh, how's your son doing? My son's doing this," and they're just kind of getting sick of her.
Glen: Yeah. The episode wanted me to care about who this woman was, I guess, just for setup reasons, but I was like, "I don't care. Get her out."
Drew: You never see her before or after. She's a one-off character. It's her birthday tomorrow, and I like at least how Julia gets her the fuck out of there by making—
Imogene: By the way, how is Payne getting along?
Julia: Oh, he—not too well, actually. I just found out he's flunking chemistry.
Imogene: [gasps] What a shame.
[audience laughs]
Imogene: Well, give him my best, won't you?
Julia: I sure will. You have a wonderful weekend, now. Bye.
Women: Bye.
Suzanne: Oh Julia. Since when is Payne flunking chemistry? I thought he's making straight As.
Julia: He is, but it's Imogene's birthday and that's a lot easier than going out and buying a scarf.
Glen: Then Jean Smart enters with a very racist joke.
Drew: Let's back up a second, though. There's a very interesting aspect to Imogene's character that comes up in something she says that's never brought back up again. Do you remember what she says her birthday plans are?
Glen: Gay funeral?
Drew: So she mentions—[laughs]. No. She mentions that her lovely, thoughtful son is—
Glen: Oh, yes.
Drew: —going to take her out to dinner. So "As soon as he and his little friend get here for the weekend, we're going to a dinner." And that's never brought up again, and I don't want to talk about that now, but that's just a very interesting line.
Glen: No, I definitely thought, knowing what this episode was about, I thought that was a setup for the character that was going to enter in a bit.
Drew: Yes. It is not, and we'll talk about when Imogene has her horrific downfall in the same office a few days later.
Glen: And then Jean Smart shows up with a racist joke.
Charlene: I'm sorry I've been gone so long. I had to stop by the Minute Mart and get some nail polish. Must have been six people ahead of me in line. The clerk didn't even speak English.
[audience laughs]
Charlene: Have you all noticed how these little minimarts are all being taken over by people from the Middle East or teenagers? I mean, all the clerks are named either Abdul or Kevin.
[audience laughs]
Drew: So then enter Anthony. Anthony is played by Meshach Taylor, and not knowing too much about what this show was, really, I kind of always had it in my head that his character was gay.
Glen: I thought his character was gay as well.
Drew: He's not.
Glen: Nope.
Drew: So he, in real life, is not gay. He was married to a soap opera actress for the entire run of the show until his death a few years ago. And then on the show, he apparently dates women. Before Delta Burke left the show, they were planning to have some sort of relationship happen with Anthony and Suzanne.
Glen: No.
Drew: It didn't happen, but he ends up getting married in the last season to a Vegas showgirl played by—do you know Sheryl Lee Ralph—this actress? She was one of the original cast members of Dreamgirls, but you would know her. She voiced Cheetah on the DC-animated The Justice League episodes.
Glen: [gasps]
Drew: She did a really good Cheetah. She's—yeah.
Glen: That was a really good Cheetah.
Drew: Yeah. That's Sheryl Lee Ralph. Not gay on the show at all, not gay in real life.
Glen: But he should have just been gay. He works in a design firm—I mean, not to stereotype, but—
Drew: He's a delivery man to start out with. He doesn't really work in the design aspect of it. But, yeah. Is that why we thought he was gay? Or is it because of Mannequin?
Glen: It may have been because of Mannequin.
Drew: So apparently, Meshach Taylor's performance in Mannequin and Mannequin 2 as Hollywood Montrose, a flamboyant—he's a store decorator. Is that his job?
Glen: Yeah.
Drew: Okay. A very gay character was so powerful that it just made us think that every other character this actor plays is also gay, and that he himself might be gay, I guess.
Glen: Oh, no. That's a horrible—because we say we shouldn’t do that all the time and then, like, "No, no." Ah, whatever. The argument is that gay men should be able to play straight, so I guess—I don't know. I don't actually have a thought on this, but I do love Hollywood.
Drew: [laughs] No you don't.
Glen: I do!
Drew: You love—okay.
Glen: I love Mannequin so much.
Drew: Oh, you love Hollywood the character, not Hollywood like the idea.
Glen: Correct.
Drew: Yeah. It's—so he's an ex-con. He's been fairly recently released from prison. He was innocent in the crime he went to jail for. They make that clear later on. It's a little awkward that the only black person on a show that takes place in Atlanta happens to be an ex-con, but at least they eventually make him a series regular and put him in the main opening credits, and at least there was a black person in a show that takes place in Atlanta. Anyway. Anthony is taking some calm classes because he's going to school to earn some degrees, and he wants to go interview high school athletes.
Glen: Again, not gay.
Drew: Again, not gay. And he's being aided in this effort to get some extra credit by Kendall Dobbs, who is this angelic person that the women of the firm all seem to have some sort of relationship with and all agree is a wonderful young man.
Glen: So we finally meet this angel, Kendall Dobbs.
Drew: We do. What is your impression of him?
Glen: Dreamy.
Drew: He's Tony Goldwyn.
Glen: Before he was a murderer in Ghost.
Drew: Or before he was—
Glen: A murderer president in Scandal.
Drew: Is he a murderer?
Glen: I'm assuming. At some point, everyone on that show has murdered someone.
Drew: Yeah. I didn't watch Scandal. But yeah, the president from Scandal is very young and blonde in this episode. And in case you're wondering, Tony Goldwyn is one of those Goldwyns. His grandfather was Samuel Goldwyn, the producer, and his family's name is the "G" in MGM.
Glen: Can't catch a break, that one.
Drew: Nope. Nope. Everyone's very happy to see Kendall, not just because he's handsome—because he seems to be perfect and nice and angelic. And Mary Jo talks about how much fun it was to work with him on a design project, and—
Kendall: Listen. Is Anthony around?
Julia: You just missed him.
Kendall: Oh. I forgot to give him one of the cords that goes in my PortaPack Unit.
Charlene: Oh. Is that it? I'll give it to him.
Mary Jo: You know, Kendall, I was just thinking about you the other day—how much fun we had decorating design houses together.
Kendall: Yeah. That was fun, wasn't it?
Julia: Why don't you sit down for just a minute and tell us what you've been working on.
Kendall: I should be getting back to the store, but I did want to talk to you about taking on a special project.
Mary Jo: Hmm. If it's that special, why aren't you taking it for yourself?
Kendall: I don't think I'd be too objective. I'm a little too close to this one.
Julia: Well, what is it?
Kendall: My funeral.
Julia: Your funeral?
Kendall: Yeah. I want you to be in charge of it—you know, design it for me.
Mary Jo: Why do you want us to design your funeral?
Kendall: Because I’m dying—and I like your taste.
Charlene: Kendall, what do you mean you're dying? You're just a kid.
Kendall: I know. But I have AIDS.
Glen: And so when Kendall shows up and he's this young, perfect creature who is 24 and not necessarily established in their field—he just seems to be someone who does everything.
Drew: Mm-hmm. There are some problems with Kendall's characterization, and as we get into the next scene we can talk about those a little bit more. But we don't really know a whole lot about him, and there maybe isn't too much to know, other than the fact that he has AIDS, he is dying, and he wants the ladies to plan his funeral so it'll look nice, because he likes their taste.
Glen: Which is not as—I guess you'd want a nice funeral, but he's actually doing it because the funeral home that is putting on his service also does funerals for AIDS patients who die and do not have family or anyone else to do their funerals. And so right now, it's just sort of a blank slate of a room. And if he has this room designed and pays for it, it'll just be the room for other patients who die.
Drew: Yeah. It's a selfless act.
Glen: Not entirely selfless.
Drew: Well, he's getting his funeral, but he's providing for people he doesn't even know who are going to die from the same disease that he has. The women are devastated by this news, and he goes on to say that he wants to make sure it's all paid for ahead of time.
Kendall: I've been tested three times, and they've all been homeruns. So.
Charlene: I just can't believe that.
Mary Jo: Neither can I. What a dirty, rotten deal.
Suzanne: I didn't even know you were gay.
Kendall: Well, I am, but you don't have to be. You should have seen the hospital ward I was just in. On one side I had a 65-year-old grandfather who got it from a blood transfusion, and on the other, an 18-year-old girl who got it from her boyfriend who got it from a girl he used to date.
Charlene: Oh, Kendall. I feel so terrible. We didn't even know you were in the hospital.
Mary Jo: Was your family here?
Kendall: No. My parents are pretty upset.
Julia: I can imagine.
Kendall: Actually, they're more upset about the gay part. They didn't know. So that's why I want to make sure my funeral is completely paid for, you know? I don't want them getting stuck with any of my bills. I figure that's the least I can do for them now.
Drew: So even though his parents are being jerks, he doesn't want to put any burden on them. He's kind of perfect.
Glen: Yeah. I mean, yeah. He's straight-acting and young and handsome and—again—has his own money, and is seemingly accomplished. And that's one of the women's first reactions was, "I didn't even know you were gay."
Drew: Which he doesn't actually—we don't see him tell them that. That happens in the bridge between the two scenes. So it's not clear if Delta Burke was just—
Glen: Assuming he's gay because he's dying of AIDS?
Drew: Right. "I didn't know you were gay." It doesn't play like that, but I did notice that.
Glen: It doesn't not play like that. And then Kendall immediately goes into the "Did you know that people who are not gay can also get AIDS?"
Drew: Right.
Glen: And that seemed—I agree it's a well-written episode. It's sort of a—I admire the role of educator that the show is trying to take. But at times, some of these lines come off as they are reading from notecards about HIV and AIDS.
Drew: Right. I noticed—because it's 1986, they don't actually use the term HIV at all. It's just AIDS.
Glen: Yep.
Drew: Yeah. I mean, in the '80s, a lot of sitcoms did episodes like this, and it is noble to think about this short-form entertainment vehicle taking on the role of educator for a very serious thing. I wonder how people would have thought of it back then, if that would have been legitimately new information to them or if people would have been like, "Yes. We know. We read the pamphlet. Please don't—you don't have to lecture me, sitcom."
Glen: No. I mean, I'm sure it was new information for a lot of people. I'm sure it's probably new information for people now.
Drew: Yeah. People are dumb. I want to talk a little bit about what Mary Jo says about Kendall being such a nice person—that she had mentioned to him once that she had to clean out her garage, and he showed up at 8:00 in the morning and didn't leave until the entire project was finished. It reminds me of two things. Number one, it makes me think that in an effort to make the death of this character all the more tragic, we had to make him seem like as much of a golden boy as possible. He wasn't just any kid. He was the nicest kid in the world, and that's going to make you feel worse that he has to suffer this fate, which is possibly an effective strategy. It's just a weird thing where sometimes gay characters get written like perfect little angels that have no real flaws whatsoever—except he, apparently, had unsafe sex once in his life.
Glen: I was going to save this until the end, and I'm just not going to be able to hold it in. But yes, that is sort of one of my major problems with this episode, and it's not necessarily the episode's fault. It is the fault of the time and entertainment at the time of—and not just entertainment, but the world of gay people having to argue their humanity, like, "Here are the reasons why you should care about us, because it's just not an underlined understanding that 'We are human—please treat us as such.'" It's like, "Here are the reasons why you should be kind to us or you should not just step on us." And so yes, making Kendall a perfect human being when they could have just made him a real person is bothersome. And that goes along with all these scientific facts and pointing out, "Oh. Well, straight people and children and important people also get AIDS, so this is why we should care." And it's going to come up later in the episode in arguments about safe sex, and when we get to Mary Jo's comment in a later scene about safe sex—and yeah—but again, we have to remember, this is 1987, and this is a problem that's not going to go away for gay representation until well into the '90s and 2000s.
Drew: I agree. I feel like the problem is—I'm not necessarily just being like, "Hey. This is problematic." I bring it up for two reasons. Number one, gay angel is a stock character you saw in everything back in the day.
Glen: One might say Angels in America.
Drew: Oh, yeah. Well—
Glen: I mean, they're not angels.
Drew: Yeah. They're all flawed. However, there is also—have you ever read the book The Best Little Boy in the World?
Glen: Is it about me?
Drew: No. It's about a gay man who—he wrote it in the—he published it in the '70. And initially it was done under a pseudonym, and then he came out as being the author of this book. So Best Little Boy in the World is a book about a guy who compensated for being gay by being the best at everything—the best student, the best son, the most dutiful family member, the most thoughtful person—and basically killed himself emotionally working really hard to impress everyone either to deflect any possibility that he might be gay or to compensate in advance for when he would eventually come out, where he would be like, "Look. I'm this great person, but I'm also gay, so you can't hate me because I did all these nice things," basically. It's kind of like an actual syndrome that I think affects a lot of gay men our age and older—probably younger than us, too. I don't really know what it's like for guys who are a lot younger than us. But I know—you were valedictorian, right?
Glen: Yeah.
Drew: Yeah.
Glen: I definitely felt like I couldn't come out until all my ducks were in a row and my life was perfect, and the only thing that my parents would have to worry about was the fact I was gay. Everything else, aces.
Drew: Right. So there is that sense of, yeah, this is kind of a less-interesting character than a flawed gay character. However, that is also an actual person that I've met in my life. If we're to look at why this character is actually realistic, it made me think of that book and that general syndrome that we're all familiar with. One of the things he mentions to the ladies is that he wants the funeral to include a performance of "A Closer Walk with Thee" by a Louisiana jazz band, which is something from his childhood that he wants to have represented in his arrangements. But it did make me think of, like, "Huh." It's an interesting thing to be like, "This is the song I want played at my funeral." And I wanted to ask you what song would you play. If you got to plan your dream funeral this week, what song would you choose to have played?
Glen: "Forever Young" from Care Bears II: The Next Generation. The title is misleading—the movie title, not the song title—because it's actually more of a prequel, and it shows the Care Bears and Care Bear Cousins as babies, and the song is from the end of the movie where a Care Bear Cousin and a Care Bear are in a rowboat together, but it's also going through flashbacks of their childhood together, like all these different Care Bears and Care Bears Cousins, and I think it's a very touching song.
Drew: I think that would be devastating for everyone who can place the reference—like, at the funeral.
Glen: Oh, yeah. I'm sure. I mean, my runner-up was Tenebra,but—
Drew: I thought your runner-up was "Hogan's Family."
Glen: No. That's third. I also prepared a thought if you were to say, "Which sitcom theme would you play at your funeral?"
Drew: Okay. Yeah. The Hogan's Family theme's really good, though.
Glen: It's very good.
Drew: Have we talked about how it's Roberta Flack singing that song?
Glen: No.
Drew: "Killing Me Softly"? It's her. It doesn't sound like her at all.
Glen: I'm familiar with the works of Roberta Flack [laughs].
Drew: Yeah. My go-to is always "Don't You Forget About Me," from The Breakfast Club. But I realize that is a colossal dick move now because you hear that—the song still gets played in [the] dentist's office and grocery stores, and it might actually ruin that song for people that really cared about you. So I'm like—yeah. I don't want to trick anyone into doing that.
Glen: I think you're giving yourself a lot of credit.
Drew: I just don't want to taint a song that people seem to have a lot of good feelings for. So the song—
Glen: People might have a lot of good feelings about you dying.
Drew: Oh, they might. They might be dancing. I can't really—I can just plan the ceremony. I can't predict how they're going to react to it. The song I would pick is "Song to the Siren" by This Mortal Coil. It's a cover of a Tim Buckley song. It was almost the theme to Twin Peaks. It's very beautiful. It's a very beautiful song that you are less likely to hear in a grocery store.
Glen: Why don't you just pick the theme to Twin Peaks?
Drew: Because that might affect people's future viewing of, like, the Twin Peaks: 50 Years Later series, which might happen. That's not going to happen. Of course, the ladies take the job. Sorry. We got very distracted. We were talking about this poor young man dying.
Glen: Spoiler alert: Then they don't take the job, and the rest of the episode is about a date or something.
Drew: Yeah. Well actually, for this being the crux of the episode, a substantial portion of it doesn't really have—it's really focused on Mary Jo's PTA meeting, and that was kind of an unusual—I was kind of surprised the way that played out. But Kendall heads out, and Anthony shows up with Bernice Clifton, who—
Glen: Is a very confusing character.
Drew: There's a lot going on there. I love Bernice. She's played by Alice Ghostley. Are you familiar with her?
Glen: Mm-hmm.
Drew: She was on Bewitched. She played Esmerelda. And she's in Grease. She plays the shop teacher—no, the auto shop teacher. She's kind of like Sophia from Golden Girls in that she suffers from a medical condition that makes her say things that are inappropriate. But they're not mean—they're just whack-a-doo. Delta Burke's character mentions at one point that she's "off her bean," is the expression she uses, which I want to appropriate. She's an eccentric, rich, old woman who needs some sort of companionship, and the girls offer this up because their mother is not around.
Glen: I thought they just did it for jobs.
Drew: They probably do that, too. But the Sugarbaker Girls' mother's—I think her name was Perky—Perky Sugarbaker. She's Bernice's friend, and she's absent for some reason. I don't remember why. So they're taking care of their mom's friend while Mom was gone. And she just comes in and says inappropriate things. She's kind of like Georgia from Mary Tyler Moore in some ways in that she's spacey, but—yeah. How would you describe her?
Glen: I wouldn't describe her, because I was like, "Who is this woman?" She's lovely enough. She gets a nice moment later in the episode.
Drew: She gets a few. She tells the story—everyone's devastated by the news that this young man they like is going to die in the very near future from AIDS, and she comes in and tells an otherwise innocuous story that's just very inappropriate in the context, and the women just suffer through it.
Anthony: Hey. Sorry we're late.
Bernice: Oh, it's not his fault. This young man has been an absolute angel. First there were some heavy boxes on the passenger side of your furniture van, so I had to sit right next to him. And then a highway patrolman stopped us because my seatbelt was hanging out, making sparks. Well, I didn't want to see anyone getting a ticket, so I made a mercy plea by telling the officer that we were on our honeymoon.
[audience laughs]
Bernice: But he said they don't give tickets for making sparks, so he just let us go after all.
Anthony: He also said we were one of the most unusual couples he's ever stopped.
[audience laughs]
Bernice: Oh, gee. I'm sorry.
Charlene: We just got some real sad news.
Mary Jo: Just a little bit of a shock.
Bernice: Oh, dear. That's too bad. How about a Chiclet?
[audience laughs]
Glen: And then Mary Jo tells them what the bad news is, and she describes it as—and this is where I'm going to get angry—
Bernice: Well, what happened?
Julia: It's Kendall.
Charlene: He's dying.
Anthony: Dying?
Suzanne: He didn't have safe sex.
Anthony: Oh, no. That's terrible. I don't want to hear this.
Mary Jo: Yeah. We're all just sick about it.
Glen: Kendall had unsafe sex, and everyone was supposed to intuit the meaning of that from her description.
Drew: So again, the scenes bridge over the specifics of what happened to him, so we don't hear him come out, and we don't hear him talk about what actually happened. So he might have said, "I had unsafe sex with someone, and that's how I got HIV."
Glen: He wouldn't have said "HIV."
Drew: Yeah. But we never see that conversation happen, so it's just kind of a disjointed—in the best-case scenario, it's disjointed. Is it Delta Burke that says he—
Glen: No. It's Mary Jo. Well, there's a reason she says it, because then it leads directly into her PTA meeting about unsafe sex. And so I was angry, and then I said, "Oh, I see what you did there, show. I get it. You're setting up another storyline. Maybe don't use the cause of someone dying as your setup for your next sitcom scene.
Drew: Right.
Glen: I mean, I get it. What are they going to really do for the second half of that storyline with Kendall? Are they going to show the ladies shopping—
Drew: Reunite him with his parents.
Glen: That would be nice.
Drew: Yeah. Or get more—we can talk about Imogene when we get back to her, but there's something there, too. Annie Potts has this line where she's just like, "I don't really want to go to that PTA meeting anymore." So then you see her at the PTA meeting where another awful woman—Carolyn Jackson, played by Joan Roberts, who is someone we're not going to see on the show ever again—is advocating—
Glen: Abstinence only.
Drew: —abstinence only. She's saying the school should not supply condoms or any sort of birth control to students.
Glen: And Mary Jo tries to ask a question or push back, and she struggles with it, which leads to other parents in the meeting nominating her to lead the counterargument at a later PTA meeting.
Drew: Yeah. Pro-condom. Pro-birth control.
Glen: It's called "Condoms for Teens."
Drew: Mm-hmm.
Glen: That's the movement label.
Drew: Mm-hmm.
Glen: Which then leads into the next scene where she has been labeled the Condom Queen.
Drew: Which I do like that. I find that very funny. That is exactly how a small-minded small town would react to her controversial stance.
Mary Jo: I'm no public speaker. I'm just going to make a big fool of myself, especially with Carolyn Jackson wearing me down.
Charlene: Mary Jo, you'll be fine. You've checked out every book on sex education in the entire public library.
Mary Jo: I know, and I still don't even know where to begin.
Bernice: Well, I can probably help you, dear. I've had sex.
[audience laughs]
Bernice: What would you like to know?
Mary Jo: Thanks a lot, Mrs. Clifton. Thank you so much. You know, the worst part of this whole mess is that horrible name. I mean, I don't know how they could call me that. I haven't even had the debate yet.
Julia: Mary Jo, that's just kids for you.
Mary Jo: But to call me—Mary Jo Shively—the Condom Queen.
[audience laughs]
Suzanne: Yeah. That's one even I wouldn't try out for.
[audience laughs]
Glen: And then we find out that Delta Burke thinks sex is weird.
Suzanne: Well, I have never understood why everybody gets so crazy over sex, anyway. I mean, when you think about it, it's pretty silly and silly-looking, too. And it messes up your hair.
[audience laughs]
Suzanne: I don't think it's something we ever would have come up with on our own.
Julia: Why not?
Suzanne: Well, it's just got to be hormones. Otherwise, no rational person would run around trying to link up with other people in that way.
[audience laughs]
Suzanne: I mean, when you get right down to it, it's just kind of an odd thing to do. Don't you think?
Women: No.
[audience laughs]
Drew: And then Annie—we're calling them both things now. But Mary Jo/Annie Potts talks about how she wishes she had Julia's fire and could just—the right words would come to her the way they come to Julia, and Julia's take is like, "You know. It's like a little angel on your shoulder, and if you feel the passion about something the words will just come to you in the moment." They all try to think of things to fire Julia up, to make her give an example of what it's like to feel passionate about something, and none of their things really work that well. So then Kendall shows up. They're excited to see him. They've been making progress on the funeral plans, and Jean Smart takes him by the hand, and she wants to show him some antique flower baskets. And—
Glen: And he is so touched that she took his hand without a second thought and treated him like a real person.
Charlene: What's the matter?
Kendall: Nothing. You just surprised me, taking my hand.
Charlene: You mean because—
Kendall: Yeah. In the hospital, even some of the nurses refused to come in my room.
Mary Jo: I can't believe that. I mean, if hospital people are going to act that way, how can they expect the public to behave any better?
Kendall: What I want to know is how'd you guys get so smart?
Drew: So this entire time, Imogene has been going through fabric samples in the back, and she pulls Julia aside and is like, "Is that the young man—"
Imogene: Is that the boy whose funeral you're planning?
Julia: Where'd you hear that?
Imogene: Well, I just heard the rumors, but I didn't actually believe it was true. Now, I don't like to hurt anyone's feelings, but if these boys hadn't been doing what they did, they wouldn't be getting what's coming to them now.
Julia: Imogene, gays aren't the only ones getting it.
Imogene: No, but they're the ones who started it.
Kendall: Actually, nobody knows how it got started. Gays are just one of the first groups it showed up in.
Imogene: Yes, and for a good reason. You reap what you sow, and you boys brought this on yourselves, and as far as I'm concerned, this disease has one thing going for it: It's killing all the right people.
Glen: Aside from the politics and the hot-button issues, who is this woman who just thinks it is her place and that it's absolutely within societal rights for her just butt in and say her opinion on a matter that has nothing to do with her?
Drew: She's an entitled, rich, white person? [sighs] The exact line is, "As far as I'm concerned, this disease has one thing going or it: It's killing all the right people." There is a real-life inspiration for it. So Linda Bloodworth-Thomason's mother died of AIDS. She got a blood transfusion, and where she got it, they weren't doing the sort of check that would have screened for that sort of thing. While her mother was in the hospital, Linda overheard someone say that the disease was killing all the right people, which is something that changes the way this episode is received in a lot of ways. That line is why this episode got written, and that's why there's all that education. And that line—the line that the writer actually heard in real life and that comes out of stupid Imogene's mouth—is what finally sets Julia off.
Glen: And we get our trademark Julia Sugarbaker fiery rant, monologue speech.
Julia: Imogene, I'm terribly sorry. I'm going to have to ask you to move your car.
Imogene: Why?
Julia: Because you're leaving.
Imogene: What are you talking about?
Julia: I'm talking about the only thing worse than all these people who never had any morals before AIDS are all you holier-than-thou types who think you're exempt from getting it.
Imogene: Well, for your information, I am exempt. I haven't lived like these people. And I don't care what you say, Julia Sugarbaker, I believe this is God's punishment for what they've done.
Suzanne: Oh yeah? Then how come lesbians get it less?
Imogene: That is not for me to say. I just know that these people are getting what they deserve!
Julia: Imogene, get serious! Who do you think you're talking to? I've known you for 27 years, and all I can say is, if God was giving out sexually transmitted diseases to people as a punishment for sinning, then you would be at the free clinic all the time.
[audience hoots and applauds]
Julia: And so would the rest of us!
Bernice: I think she makes a good point.
Imogene: Oh, who cares what you think? You're not even all there!
Bernice: Well, as long as we're on the subject—neither are you.
Imogene: Well, you needn't look forward to any more of my business in this lifetime.
Julia: Wonderful! I'll close out your account. And another thing. My son has an A in chemistry. In fact, he's making all As in everything, including P.E.!
[audience laughs and applauds]
Drew: I like the interjections other people have. Delta Burke mentioned—she's like, "Then why don't lesbians get it?" And then what Bernice says. Bernice, who's off her bean, is actually pretty nice. She says—
Glen: Yeah. Imogene says to Bernice, "Well, you're not all there, " pointing to her head, and then Bernice comes back and points to her heart and says, "You've got something missing here."
Drew: Right, which we have to explain because you would not—
Glen: Yeah. I'm pointing to my heart right now—or where I think my heart is.
Drew: When Bernice says it, she's pointing to her heart. When Glen's saying, it, he's also pointing to his heart. It's nice for someone who is kind of discounted as being loopy, at best.
Glen: I also want to mention, this is a lovely scene. I do wish Kendall, sitting on the couch through this entire thing—could have said something in his—not defense. He doesn't need to defend himself. But he could have said something.
Drew: He says one thing. She says, "Gays started AIDS," and he's like, "Well, actually, that's not true. We don't know where it came from, really." And then he does not speak another line. I'm glad you brought this up, too, because it's weird that he's utterly passive and these women are fighting for him. And that's nice of them, but—
Glen: Yeah. Again, it's of the time when—how entertainment thought they were going to win society on our side was to say, "Gay people need straight people to defend them." It was never really—there wasn't much of a call to arms for gay people to defend their selves, and so we thought we were going to win the war by just winning over enough of, I guess, the right people—to help us. So, whatever. I get he's not a main character of the show. We're not going to give him the best lines. We were not going to give Kendall a Julia Sugarbaker speech. We have to remember that this is still a sitcom on network television in 1987, and it's a special episode, but it's also true to any other sort of one-episode topic where you're still going to give the best stuff to your stars. It just happens that for pretty much every TV show, the star is going to be a straight, white person.
Drew: Yeah. It's just a product of the time it was born in, and I guess it—apparently, we cannot emphasize enough that although we are considering the time period in which this came out, we are also comparing to how it reads today, and we're doing both. And we're not ignoring how—we got some comments. But, whatever. I'm going to point out the line that Imogene has in her first scene. She says that when "My son and his little friend are coming into town for the weekend, and they're going to take me out to dinner." They are setting up the idea that Imogene's son, who she's very proud of, is also gay, and his little friend is supposed to be his partner.
Glen: Boyfriend.
Drew: Yeah. They don't bring this up again, which is—maybe it's a vestige of an early draft of what this was going to be like, and it just got left out. But if there is the idea that Imogene's son is gay, I'm glad that Julia and everyone else doesn't use this to attack her because that's something we witnessed a lot in the All in the Family episode where people use knowledge about other people's sexuality as leverage to win an argument or put people in their place. And they don't do that. And as it exists now, it's a very subtle thing where this woman is a nasty homophobe, and the thing she's most proud of in her life is her son—and her son might actually be gay. And that was just going to be devastating for her, but also maybe wake her the fuck up about treating gay people like crap.
Glen: But that also just makes me want that to be what this episode was. I don't know that we needed the PTA Teen Sex Ed—and we're going to talk about that in a second. But what you said was missing from the A-plot of the gay funeral was the son reconnecting with his mother. Why couldn't that be the storyline of Julia Sugarbaker has this frenemy, and they both have sons, and the frenemy's son is coming home from challenge or wherever—or from being abroad because he's so amazing. And he comes out to Julia before to his mother because he knows how his mother would react. And when he comes out to Julia, he's like, "You also have to plan my funeral." And this episode could have been about Julia bridging the gap between the son who loves is mother and wants to come out to his mother—doesn't know how. And this homophobe being confronted with the fact that "You think this is easy, just killing all the right people, and yet the best person in the world in your eyes is dying of it." And that would have personalized everything a little bit more.
Drew: Mm-hmm. And condensed, because as it exists now, there are three perfect sons in this episode. There's Julia's own son, Payne, who you see in other places. We don't see here. There's Imogene's son who she thinks is perfect, and then there's Kendall who everyone agrees it's perfect,. And then you have Imogene as this conservative jerk, basically, who thinks she's right but doesn't understand how her words are hurting other people. And then you also have the PTA woman who's arguing against birth control. Those characters—in another version of the script, those characters could be condensed won into one character. And yeah, is interesting that there's in my mind a lot of duplication.
Glen: To bring a homophobe who might be watching Designing Women, although I cannot imagine—to bring them on that same journey that Imogene has to go through—confronting the idea of her gay son. Would have been a much more powerful argument than "Here are some facts you may not know about AIDS."
Drew: Right. Right, right, right.
Glen: And then "Here's how AIDS may one day affect your straight children," which let's just burn through the last scene. It's Mary Jo at the PTA meeting having a lovely speech about how birth control is not about preventing births anymore—it's about preventing death.
Mary Jo: I am certainly in favor of abstinence, but I don't believe that it's realistic. To think that these—
Carolyn: Oh, let's quit kidding around, shall we? What you are actually saying Mrs. Shively, is that if your 15-year-old daughter is determined to have sex, then you won't mind her going to a dance with a boy who has a condom in his wallet, paid for by your tax dollars. Isn't that correct?
Mary Jo: What I am saying is that I have a dear, sweet, funny friend, 24 years old—not very much older than the kids that we're talking about here. And he came to me this week and asked me to help plan his funeral because he's dying—from AIDS. Something that he got before he even knew what it was or how to prevent it. I've been think a lot about his mother this week and what she might give for the opportunity that I have tonight—that we all still have here tonight, because now we know how to help prevent AIDS. And I think that it really shouldn't matter what your personal views are about birth control because, you see, we're not just talking about preventing births anymore. We're talking about preventing deaths. Twenty-five thousand Americans have died, and we're still debating. For me, this debate is over. More important than what any civic leader or PTA or board of education thinks about teenagers having sex or any immoral act that my daughter or your son might engage in is the bottom line that I don't think they should have to die for it.
Glen: It's a good argument. It's a strong argument. Obviously, I am pro-sex ed in school.
Drew: And she gives it her way. She doesn't become Julia. It's still a halting speech. She's not Julia Sugarbaker. She's Mary Jo Shively, and she gives the speech her way, which I thought was a nice touch.
Glen: Yeah. Instead of fire, there's tears.
Drew: Right. And Kendall comes in to support her in giving the speech, and she has—yeah. She's moved by seeing Kendall there, and that gives her the power to go through the end of the speech, and she wins. Her side wins, we're led to believe.
Glen: Yeah. And then we close on the funeral.
Drew: We close on the funeral. It's—yeah. It's just, you see the band playing, and it's sad.
Glen: Drew's crying.
Drew: A little bit. So—yeah. You go.
Glen: Yeah. I mean, I guess Drew and I are having equal but opposite reactions to the episode in some ways. Yes, I'm moved by it. I think it's sad. But I guess this is just going to lead into my final thoughts on this episode and what it's dealing with, and that is Drew and I are of an age where we realized we were gay and came out in a period where being gay was synonymous with death.
Drew: Mm-hmm.
Glen: And there was always fear connected to it. And even now, having digested decades of science and facts and knowing that—well, HIV and AIDS being a very different place than it was in 1987. It's no longer a death sentence, and there's also ways you can prevent it. And there are ways you can be in a very loving and safe relationship with someone who is HIV positive without fearing that you get it yourself. And if you believe otherwise at this point in time, then you are just sort of ignorant and ignoring facts. That being said, that was not the case when I came out or before I came out, and there are probably many lovely people I did not engage with because of fear—whether or not I knew their status. There's at least one person I chose not to date when I was very young because he was HIV positive, and I'd never been in a relationship, and I thought that the additional stress of that would have made that relationship harder. Now, I have since reconnected with that person, apologized for my approach to that. We wouldn't have worked out anyway for any other reasons, but for me to use that excuse was wrong then. And also, just thinking about what my life would be like now if my whole gay coming out was not connected to this political debate and this whole gay plague/gay cancer. And it's hard to divorce. It just is.
Drew: I don't think I will ever be able to do it fully, and I don't think I've ever had sex without the weight of fear of death weighing over me. And maybe that's why I watch scary movies as often as I do. But—yeah. I wonder what it's like for someone 15 years younger than us who's out and having sex and they don't have to think about that.
Glen: Yeah. I know what that's like by having sex with people who are 15 years younger than me.
Drew: No. I've never done that.
Glen: Yeah. Me neither.
Drew: [laughs]
Glen: No. There is a weight lifted off the next generation of gays that I am grateful has been lifted. And I'm happy that they can be more educated and safer and hopefully happier.
Drew: Yeah. Have less—
Glen: Yeah. But this episode for me was just a reminder of the journey of HIV and AIDS education to the popular masses, being that we had to trick them into understanding and caring.
Drew: Yeah. We did have to trick them into caring.
Glen: Yeah.
Drew: Yeah. Yeah. That's—I guess they had to trick them into caring. Even then, it's sort of a weird disconnect. But the thing about this episode—yeah. This episode was illustrative of what a process it's been and how much things are different and how weird it is that HIV today is a livable condition and—like you say—not a death sentence. But the line that got me the most was when Annie—[pauses due to overwhelming emotions]. The line that got me the most was when Annie Potts—fuck [cries]. I don't think I—
Glen: You want to write it down?
Drew: The line that got me the most is when Annie Potts is giving her speech at the PTA meeting and she sees Kendall, and she mentions that condoms are good because they can prevent death, and "I have this funny, thoughtful friend," I think is the phrasing she uses to describe him, and she's sad because this person she thinks a lot of is going to die soon. And she's also thinking of Kendall's mother, and being a mother herself, she's trying to imagine what the grief would be like to lose your child in that way. And I don't know why I got so stuck on that phrase and that part of it, but I think it's—number one, having people in my life who are HIV positive and liking a great deal and feeling very lucky that medical technology has made it possible for them to continue to be around, which is a remarkable thing, and I'm very grateful for that. But I don't know if I can explain this right. But—
Glen: Empathy?
Drew: It's empathy for everyone else who lost those people.
Glen: Not just the parents who lost children, and not just partners who lost their loved ones, but also as a community we lost so much.
Drew: Yeah. Like we don't really know what a gay community would look like in 30 to 40 or 50 years because we don't really have an example of an established gay community that wasn't decimated by disease. But when there's a point when you would have representation for every generation of gay people going to the same Pride event or whatever, that might be a very different community than what it is now.
Glen: Yeah. I was talking to friends up in San Francisco who have some older gay friends who can walk around and talk about the landmarks and what things were like back then. And one of them commented to me, like, what it must be like to have to walk around your neighborhood and just see ghosts everywhere—see places that bring you happy memories, but also sad memories because you lost people. And it's just—it's a weird thing.
Drew: Yeah. It's a weird thing, and this episode is a good episode, but just a weird piece of entertainment where it's important and it does its job, but it is so weird to think about—it's going to sound like I'm making a joke, but we both watch Steven Universe, and Steven Universe is a show about superheroes—kind of. And starting any given episode, you might end up happy or peaceful or very sad at the end—that might just really break your heart—and we still put ourselves up to watching new episodes because we understand what it is. We expect that from it. But I guess something about a sitcom breaking your heart is a very—it's a form of entertainment I guess we don't have that often now. I don't know.
Glen: I don't know. We both cried our way through One Day at a Time.
Drew: That's true. Yeah [sighs].
Glen: But I guess I view this more as a time capsule than a half hour of entertainment. This is not an episode of Frasier where I can still sit back and enjoy it and sort of—there are things to talk about and lessons to be learned from how the gay issue is treated there whereas this was an episode that was very specifically about educating the public about this disease.
Drew: Right.
Glen: And that's what it is, and view it as, like, this is a factual representation of where the public debate was in 1987. And you go back, and you read all the stories about the White House Press Briefing Room about AIDS and how it would get laughed at. And on the one hand, I am very sickened by our current political situation, but I'm also grateful that everyone is so angry all the time, but we're also so aware. And we are going to push back when science is laughed at and marginalized people are ignored. And if we had had a more engaged society back then and more people on our side without us having to get Delta Burke to point out that lesbians don't get AIDS, we'd be in a different place.
Drew: Yeah.
Glen: I mean, we're fine. You have a dog.
Drew: I do have a dog.
Glen: You'll hug him after this episode.
Drew: Oh, yes. And I'll take him on a walk and try not to cry during the walk again. Yeah. I think that's everything I have to say about—I don't think I have the ability to discuss a whole lot more. Do you have anything you want to talk about?
Glen: Not really. I think I've Julia-Sugarbaker ranted—not quite as eloquently, but perhaps with a third of her passion—about this episode. Yeah. Whatever.
Drew: Yeah. Glen, where can people find you online?
Glen: I don't know. Ranting in some chat room? No. @BrosQuartz on Instagram—that's B-R-O-S Quartz—and then @IWriteWrongs on Twitter. That's "write" with a W.
Drew: And you can find me on Twitter @DrewGMackie—M-A-C-K-I-E. you can follow Gayest Episode Ever on Twitter @gayestepisode. And then we're on Facebook at GayestEpisodeEver. We also actually have a website now. It's called GayestEpisodeEver.com. Real easy to remember. If you just feel like you want updates on this podcast there, go check it out. I made it kind of snazzy.
Glen: You can look at it on your phone now.
Drew: You can look at it on any screened device, basically.
Glen: iPad.
Drew: Yeah. It's very exciting. You can follow us on iTunes, SoundCloud—
Glen: Stitcher?
Drew: Stitcher. That's one. And then Google Play if you're on an Android. Please give us a rate and review. We have three rates and reviews, and if you write something funny we will read it in a future episode. Write a review, please. It helps other people find this.
Glen: Maybe don't show them this episode first.
Drew: It'll be at the top of the stack. It's just a sad episode that made me cry. So, I hope you didn't cry.
Glen: I hope you did cry.
Drew: I hope I didn't—I didn't cry as much as I thought I was going to. This was—I was very nervous talking about this.
Glen: Well, I kept giving you dirty looks every time I looked at you and you were about to cry.
Drew: Oh. I thought that was your regular face.
Glen: That is my regular face.
Drew: Yeah. That's too bad. Yeah. That's it. I think that's all we got. Is there anything we're supposed to say at the end?
Glen: I say, "Bye forever," but I don't want to say it after this episode.
Drew: Okay. Podcast over! See you next time. Episode eight. We're talking about Seinfeld. It'll be fun.
Glen: I hope I don’t cry during that one.
Drew: Yeah. We'll both cry. Podcast over.
["Song to the Siren" by This Mortal Coil plays]